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Episode 6  |  34:43 min

Marketing Cloud Implementation: Journey Builder

Episode 6  |  34:43 min  |  08.30.2019

Marketing Cloud Implementation: Journey Builder

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This is a podcast episode titled, Marketing Cloud Implementation: Journey Builder. The summary for this episode is: In this episode of "In the Clouds Podcast," hosts Bobby and Cole discuss the basics of implementing Journey Builder. You'll learn how to utilize all the differentiator components of Journey Builder, techniques on developing the best (and worst) journeys, and tips on avoiding common mistakes. 
Takeaway 1 | 00:51 MIN
Overview of Episode
Takeaway 2 | 02:25 MIN
Journey Builder, the big Differentiator
Takeaway 3 | 00:54 MIN
Main Elements of Journey Builder
Takeaway 4 | 02:00 MIN
Entry Events
Takeaway 5 | 02:01 MIN
Re-Engaging
In this episode of "In the Clouds Podcast," hosts Bobby and Cole discuss the basics of implementing Journey Builder. You'll learn how to utilize all the differentiator components of Journey Builder, techniques on developing the best (and worst) journeys, and tips on avoiding common mistakes. 

Speaker 1: Welcome to the In the Clouds Podcast. In the Clouds is a Marketing Cloud podcast powered by Lev, the most influential marketing- focused Salesforce consultancy in the world. Lev is customer experience obsessed, and podcast hosts Bobby Tichy and Cole Fisher have partnered with some of the world's most well- known brands to help them master meaningful one- on- one connections with their customers. In this podcast, they'll combine strategy and deep technical expertise to share best practices, how- tos, and real- life use cases and solutions for the world's top brands using Salesforce products today.

Bobby Tichy: Welcome to In the Cloud, live from the 317.

Cole Fisher: That doesn't sound nearly as cool when you say it. I'm sure somebody says that, says," Live from the 317."

Bobby Tichy: Live from the 317, coming at you from Indianapolis, Indiana.

Cole Fisher: Not cool enough to pull off" live from the 317". But, yes, we're both airing from Indianapolis right now.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. I am pretty cool. Thanks, everybody, for joining. Today we're going to focus on Journey Builder, and, in our last episode, focusing on implementing Salesforce Marketing Cloud, and really the basics on the email front, focusing on Journey Builder, and really how it's presented and how it works as well as the different components that are available to us. As well as, what is the best way to start implementing Journey Builder? Then some different elements around troubleshooting, and things that people typically come in contact with that might be helpful to know, and then just the best ways to build them. Then we'll talk about some journeys that we've worked on that we've seen really be successful as well. Then we'll jump over into completely unrelated. First, just jumping into Journey Builder, Cole, I'd love to hear your perspective on its differentiator in the marketplace.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. Journey Builder itself is that staple product that really separates Salesforce Marketing Cloud from, I feel like, a lot of competitors in the space. Automation tools are not uncommon in the space, but when it comes to Journey Builder... How would you define Journey Builder? I guess I would say it would be something along the lines of a customer experience automation tool that provides decisioning and orchestration across multiple channels. What I feel like is really the key differentiator there is, A, it is multi- channel, so it's not just email. Which, email orchestration, ad orchestration, things like that exist ample in the space. That's not really what sets it apart. The fact that it is cross channel. The fact that, honestly, it has a pretty easy drag- and- drop type of capability in its user interface. I feel like, for what it serves as a purpose, is a lot more intuitive than I feel like most automation tools of that nature can be. Then on top of that, the decisioning capabilities. Being able to segment on whether somebody's open, or whether somebody's interacted with a certain message, and things like that. I feel like, yeah, those are really core differentiators that make this Journey Builder the staple of Marketing Cloud, the big differentiator.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. I think the way I always describe it to folks is it's a marketing automation tool. I think that that's selling it a little bit short. I think your description's a lot better. I think about other tools that I've worked with extensively, like Marketo, where it has these feature sets. It's not as intuitive, like you had mentioned, but it's also not as integrated. The really nice thing about Journey Builder, and we'll talk a little bit more about this as we get into the components, but its strong integration into Sales and Service Cloud, but also the ability for us to integrate it to anything else using custom activities. Whether it's another channel provider, or a direct mail provider, or anything that has a web service, we can call from Journey Builder. Even if we just want to notify someone at a register, for example, about something that's happening in a retail store, something along those lines.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. It really provides that same flexibility that the entire model of Marketing Cloud is built on, whether it's API, or manual, or SFTP, whatever it might be, pulling in data. Marketing Cloud has that really, really flexible integration to any other systems and tools. It's the same sort of thing with Journey Builder. It really is remarkable. Maybe we can get into some use cases later on of some pretty unique cases where there's been some neat capabilities and uses out of Journey Builder.

Bobby Tichy: The one good thing I really like about it too that Salesforce has done a good job innovating and putting more research and development behind the product is, you're now able to generate almost all of your messaging directly in Journey Builder. For example, a lot of other tools, you've got to go to a different content section to create an email, or select an email, or to create a mobile message. But within Journey Builder, you can do all of that directly in the Journey Builder UI. You don't have to switch from one toggle to another toggle to be able to do that. With that, and thinking of the user interface, let's jump into the different components of Journey Builder. Cole had already mentioned the drag- and- drop canvas. As we think about just creating a journey from scratch, there are three main different elements that we want to think about. One is the entry event. How are people actually getting into a journey? What kind of segmentation criteria are we going to put in place? The next is, what is the goal of that journey? Is it to make someone purchase? Is it to make someone engage? Whatever that goal might be. Then, also, what is the exit criteria of that journey? For example, the goal and exit can sometimes be synonymous with one another, because if someone gets to the goal of the journey, we want them to be ejected from it. Same thing with the exit. If someone purchases, for example, that goal, they might be removed, but if someone unsubscribes, they may also want to be removed. That would be more on the exit criteria. Those are the three main elements, the entry, the goal, and the exit. Really important to keep those in mind as you guys are building out your first journeys. But then there's a slew of other activities, and entry sources, and all that kind of stuff that you're able to do within Journey Builder as well.

Cole Fisher: I don't mean to pump Salesforce's tires too much or anything, but there's a good reason, a valid reason that Journey Builder is the sort of staple product within Marketing Cloud. It is doing more than other orchestration tools can, and it is operating across more channels than other tools do. Honestly, I think it's really easy to... Back in the ExactTarget days, we did this, where it's easy to forgo the direct user experience, the user being the marketer in this case. It's easy to not really pay a whole lot of attention to design, and interface, and ease of use, really because these tend to be more technical products. It's easy to let that be an excuse to say," Okay, since these are more technical products, more technical resources will be interfacing with this." I think this is one of those tools where they've actually gone out and ironed out the design and process and made it more intuitive. Most of the time, especially in our industry, you'll see demos of products and things like that. It always looks fantastic on the demo, and then you actually go and sit in front of it, and you're like," What did I just watch? Why does it do any of this, what I expected?" Still people get hung up on maybe not defining an entry point or something properly, but for the most part when they say it's drag- and- drop canvas, and when you watch the demos, it actually translates pretty well into real- time use of the product.

Bobby Tichy: Definitely. Yeah. They've done a great job of putting a lot of power behind Journey Builder as far as research, and development, and investment is concerned. It really shows. I think that I remember when I first started at Marketo, leaving Salesforce about a year after the acquisition of ExactTarget.

Cole Fisher: This is where I wish we had one of those radio buttons, where I can press the" boo" and it'd be a whole crowd booing. The sound effects.

Bobby Tichy: It was so interesting, because I remember seeing Marketo's integration with Salesforce and ExactTarget's integration with Salesforce at the time, and Marketo's was definitely better. It's been really interesting over the last four or five years to see how much that integration on the Marketing Cloud side has gotten better. It's all hinged on Journey Builder. The amount of customization you can build within Journey Builder, to writing back to Salesforce, and also the listening components within Journey Builder are really, really powerful. The entry events are the catalyst, like we talked about earlier, of," How do we get somebody into a journey?" The first one I mentioned was Sales or Service Cloud. It could be anything from when a lead is created, or a contact is updated, or a case is created. Almost anything that is on a standard or custom object in a Sales or Service Cloud we can use as part of an entry event. It's really powerful as far as the integration is concerned. If you don't have Sales or Service Cloud or you don't have it integrated to Journey Builder, no problem at all. You can use any of your data extensions or other data sources as your entry event. You can either use queries that you've already built, or you can use the drag- and- drop canvas and segmentation within Marketing Cloud within Journey Builder. What it will do will inherit the relational contact model that you set up, and then you can build any kind of segment or segmentation that you want to within that entry source. It's really neat to see that element of it as well. A couple other entry sources. One is called a CloudPage form. For those of you who are aware, there are forms that are available through CloudPages. Those are the standard forms, though, so not super sophisticated if you're just using the basic forms. You're able to use that to inject directly into a journey. Then the other element would be through the API. For example, if someone signs up on the website, and we have a web service called" Directly to Journey Builder" or" to Marketing Cloud", we can use that as the entry event and have people go directly down that journey.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. When you're getting started with journeys, again, with that usability factor, really when we're starting fresh from scratch, they've even designed ahead of time where you can actually pull templates of journeys that already exist. You can do welcome templates or abandoned cart templates, the more common, low- hanging- fruit journeys. I think one thing that we always try to steer customers away from is envisioning the end-to- end customer life cycle as a journey, where they go through acquisition, and then they go through onboarding, and then engagement, and purchase life cycles, and then... Because I think, intuitively, people think about the end- to- end customer experience. While Journey Builder manages the customer experience, it's in your best interest, really, to manage that in small facets and different chunks, in breaking off either types of products or types of instances within the life cycle, stages of the life cycle. Just the acquire, or the onboarding, or something like that. A welcome series, or something like that, might be a really good idea for a journey, whereas welcoming, and then decision splitting into how they engage, and then the post- purchase, and things like that, those should really tend to be broken up. I feel like that's a common one for a first step into Journey Builder, like a rookie setup where I want to manage everything. You can really manage everything. In fact, we have customers that don't send any one- off emails, they do everything through Journey Builder. It's fully capable of accommodating that. But what we always caution against is trying to make too long or complex of a journey where, if you have to make an update or anything like that, the entire journey is starting new, or you're effecting everybody else in that journey with one minor change.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. Because I think people just try to boil the ocean instead of just trying to just start from a very easy point of entry. Instead of thinking of," Okay, what is the goal of this journey?" If you can't really define the goal in a sentence, it's probably too big of a goal, is the way I typically think about it. You made the example of a welcome journey." I just want to welcome people into my brand. I want to let them know what we stand for and how we're going to provide any kind of a service to them." Same thing with things like a re- engagement campaign or a win- back campaign. Re- engagement, we're trying to get people to come back and engage with us on a particular channel or for a particular reason, whether that's to buy or just engage with our content. The win- back would be," We're just trying to... People who've purchased before, we want to get them back into the fold on our particular journey." Really starting simple and then iterating from there is how we found people to be most successful. I think people really get caught up in, to your point... Customer life cycle is so important, and it's typically one of the first questions that we ask our customers." Do you have a customer life cycle? Do you have customer personas?" Those are so important. But even if you do have those, trying to build them all into a single journey would be a monumental task. Instead, what we typically recommend is having different journeys for different stages of that life cycle. For example, maybe acquisition is a journey. Maybe onboarding is a journey. Optimizing. Cross selling. Win- back. All these different elements that should be different streams altogether and should be different journeys. To your point, then you're able to do things like test content, or subject lines, or channels, all that kind of stuff.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. When you get to that point, you can always become more complex with it. But just starting off with an acquisition journey, or a welcome journey, a post- purchase journey, things like that right off the bat, at least get us to the point where we're accomplishing more than we already were. Then we get to the point of," Okay, do we treat our acquisitions differently? This was a web forum and this was a'walk into a retail store' lead. How do we treat these differently? How do we iterate on these journeys and their experiences, and how do we tie that in?" Your welcome journeys can become more complex, or they can become separate journeys in and of themselves. But I feel like it's just the same concept as marketing in general. It's iterative. It's constantly evolving. You're doing more as you learn more. Actually one of the best things that you mentioned was the split testing feature within Journey Builder. Which, I love to geek out on just the concept of measurable, actionable data, especially when we automate it, and just know that the best piece of content, the best subject line, the best timing, whatever it is that we're testing is being moved forward as the most optimal. You can split test across multiple different variations, and just have it automated as to where you go and when you actually move forward. I can say,"I'm going to test 5% of my audience, and whichever is the most successful piece of content, move forward with the rest of the 95% on this." I love that feature. The testing feature is actually fantastic in Journey Builder.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. The split testing, doing a random split or split based on a particular field. The engagement split, so if someone opens or clicks, or doesn't open or click. In addition to some of the more recent features on the Einstein front, so Send Time Optimization, which we'll talk about a little bit more in a future podcast once it's officially released. Then also Einstein engagement frequency, looking at how often we're sending to people. What's the right amount to really be sharing content with them or sending emails to them? So that there's continuous advancement and innovation on Journey Builder, too, in addition to some of those baseline features that you'll find. Speaking of that, I think about the best and the worst journeys that we've seen. I think the best one that I've seen... There's so many there that are really good, so I hate to choose just one. One that I really liked, and this has been a couple of years ago, but it was the first time I really saw this strategy, where it was an onboarding welcome journey. What they were doing was just sending out three emails. If you didn't open the first email, they sent you the same email but with a different subject line or from name. Then if you didn't open that, then you were kicked out of the journey and marked as unengaged, and they would try on a different channel. They did that at every step of those three emails. By the time you got to the end, if you opened or clicked all three emails, you were a highly engaged subscriber.

Cole Fisher: Almost like a lead scoring type of-

Bobby Tichy: Exactly. Yeah. Then they were able to use that to segment, and build dynamic content, and really build a strategy for that particular person. Whereas if you only open two of the emails or one of the emails, then you were rejected from that journey with a different score, so to speak. I really like that kind of... It was simple, but it was also sophisticated in its own right.

Cole Fisher: I like that. Were they actually tiering out their subscribers in buckets of crosstalk so that they could segment them later?

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. Then they were updating that. That's another nice feature of Journey Builder, is you can write back to the contact model to a data extension or a record in a data extension. If Cole opened these three emails, that" highly engaged" went right back to his record on the master data extension. That way, whenever I'm doing any kind of segmentation, or queries, or things, I can just use that as part of my criteria.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. It seems super basic and really straightforward, but it's a fantastic idea.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah, for sure. Some of the worst that I've seen... I saw one for a retailer that was over 500 activities. You could not zoom out enough in the browser to be able to see all of the activities. It was just like," I don't know how you show success for this. I don't know how you troubleshoot any of this." It was just one of those things." This should be like 12 journeys, not one journey."

Cole Fisher: Yeah. I've seen the exact same thing, where you can't zoom out enough to even picture the entire end- to- end journey at some point.

Bobby Tichy: Most of them that we see, and this is one that's really helpful when we think about contact frequency or communication limits, but the first activity in every journey, in my opinion, should be an update contact. We have a field on the contact that we're saying," This person is in a journey." Whether we signify what journey that person's in, whether it's welcome, or re- engagement, whatever, that's more sophisticated. But if someone is in a journey, most likely we should probably suppress them if there's a daily or every other day, the more batch and blast type sense, because we want to be sensitive to the email that they're getting. That's something that I really like seeing. Then, at the end of that journey, same thing. Update contact to remove them or remove that value of being in the journey.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. I think that's just an inherently important component to Journey Builder, is exit. You have to let the journey end. You have to let them exit at some point. I feel like when we see those big, complicated journeys, those are usually a product of," This drag- and- drop exit criteria here, I'll use that later." But we keep the same subscribers, the same users, the same customers in our journey for so long that it ends up defeating the purpose of the journey that we began with.

Bobby Tichy: Exactly.

Cole Fisher: I've definitely seen some of those that were just super complicated that were almost entire life cycles in a single journey. That's a common issue, I feel like, probably the most common, is just not really stepping back to the 30,000- foot view and assessing what and why. What type of journey do I need and why? What is the purpose behind it? Like you said, what is the goal? I like the way you put that. If you can't succinctly communicate the goal in a sentence or less, then it's probably too complicated to be a manageable journey and an effective one in that regard. One of the most effective ones that I saw was when I was at Salesforce. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the name, but it's a tire retailer. What they would always do was they offered free checkups, and every time somebody came in for a checkup, they would measure the tread of the tire. That was it. They just put it into their system, and that was it. We build an integration pulling in that data into Marketing Cloud and just storing it as data fields and data extensions. What we started doing with it was, we could drop them into a journey once they passed a certain threshold. In phase two we were working on... Essentially there's stages of how a tire decays over time on the road. When you pass a four or a five, I think, millimeter measurement, that's when it becomes very dangerous in terms of the depth of your tread. What they were doing is, if people came in and they were above that, then they would drop them into this journey and it would count down according to their their basic usage, when we would expect them to probably cross the four or five threshold. Then they would trigger out a message and say," By the way"... We had an image that would dynamically populate, and email saying which or how many of their tires were actually below the threshold.

Bobby Tichy: Nice. Okay.

Cole Fisher: If it was green, that meant it was above a six, or something like that. If it was a four or a five, it was yellow and it would highlight which tire, front left, whatever. Then it would go red if it was below that. Then as the journey progressed, we would mail them or send them messages, whether they open things like that, or they would have different reactions. But they saw, just, a tremendous success rate. The metrics behind it were... I can't really share the whole figures off the top of my head, but it was in the millions, for just a couple of months of the journey running, of attributed revenue to this journey. They had a fantastic success with it.

Bobby Tichy: That's crazy. Yeah. It's one of those things where we've got all the data, we just need to make sure that that journey is built the right way. Also one thing that we saw with the recent retailer as well, the no- nos of journeys, like we talked about before, of updating the contact to be able to press people who are in a journey to know that they are in a journey. Is if I'm going down a journey, a welcome journey, let's say, but I've already made a purchase, we've got to figure out a way to make sure that that messaging is in sync. Because just like how helpful something could be, like the tire retailer... Let's say there was a coupon within that. The second email in that journey was a coupon for 25% off. But, the day before, I just upgraded my tires and I didn't have the 25% off-

Cole Fisher: Yeah. That's a really good point.

Bobby Tichy: You got to make sure you have the messaging in sync and integrated across the board, really just figuring out your suppressions and exclusions along the way. That's why that goal and the exit criteria is so important, and making sure that all of the data points are connected in an automated fashion.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. Data in and data out as efficiently as possible. That was a big thing, too. With their journey in particular, it started off really basic. It wasn't super difficult. It was a manual measurement that had some sort of data input as soon as their appointment was over that automatically in a different journey triggered some sort of a thank you, or another appointment follow- up, or something. But, after that, it was just drop in. Super simple. But, yeah, we didn't try to complicate it too much. We let it run as itself, saw a tremendous success, and then begin to iterate on that and started testing on that. Yeah, I can think of a couple of cases where there have been big fall outs of," By the way, here's your coupon," or," Here's your later on"... It was," I just made my purchase. This was not an insignificant purchase by any means, but now you're giving me the coupon afterwards for the item that I checked out two days ago." That's a 48- hour window where...

Bobby Tichy: We should have-

Cole Fisher: We should've had some sort of data and some sort of update.

Bobby Tichy: Exactly. Yeah. Most definitely. The last portion I'll mention is just, plan for testing and optimization. We've talked a lot about optimization, of starting simple. Iterating constantly. As we always say, marketing is never perfect or finished. Also for testing. What's really nice is, within the journey interface, we've got a ton of testing capabilities where it will go through every message, make sure your dynamic content, and your AMPscript, and all those different elements are good to go. Also it will actually send you all those different emails within a short amount of time to make sure you can test them and approve them before going out. That's our session on Journey Builder and implementing Journey Builder. In a couple other podcasts coming up we'll talk through some of the more advanced features that we talked about, Einstein, in a little bit more detail. Looking forward to that. Earlier today, moving on to completely unrelated, Cole and I were having lunch. I'm a big basketball fan. I mentioned that to Cole, and I proceeded to get about a five- minute rant why basketball is the worst of the sports. I'd like to hear why you think basketball is the worst of the sports.

Cole Fisher: I wasn't necessarily just blaming basketball. I'm not much of an NBA guy, which is what we were really talking about. But, yeah, it could be also just basketball in general. I love March Madness. I get into March Madness.

Bobby Tichy: But it was much more about the scoring of basketball.

Cole Fisher: Just as a concept in general. I've got my own issues with the NBA, which, full disclosure, I was a giant Pacers fan until the rumble in Detroit, or whatever they call this now.

Bobby Tichy: Malice at the Palace?

Cole Fisher: Malice at the Palace. Yeah, where it turned into the WWF for me, and... WWE now. But that wasn't my jam anymore. I didn't want to see that. I'm much more of a hockey fan, or really any other sport. If I'm being totally transparent, part of it is the fact that, of all sports that I played growing up, basketball was my worst.

Bobby Tichy: You didn't tell me that, really.

Cole Fisher: I was the only one in my family who had to get cut from the elementary school basketball team both years.

Bobby Tichy: Wait, your elementary school had a basketball team?

Cole Fisher: Yeah. Fifth and sixth grade. That was a big deal.

Bobby Tichy: Oh, okay. When you said" both years", I was like," Did you only go to two years of elementary school?"

Cole Fisher: I loved elementary school so much they always held me back. No, but my problem was just in the concept of basketball versus other sports. Think about the main objective. We're talking about Journey Builder and goals, here, and defining the goal. The goal in hockey, for instance, is to take a six- ounce vulcanized rubber puck and put it in the back of the opponent's net. It's very difficult to do. When it does happen, it's a big deal. The crowd goes crazy. It's really exciting.

Bobby Tichy: I don't know what" vulcanized" means.

Cole Fisher: It's just what the puck is made of. Soccer, for instance, you might go 90 minutes and not accomplish the goal. In fact, it happens frequently. Nil- nil matches all the time. 90 minutes. But it's intense. It's the world's most popular sport despite the fact that the goal is very difficult to accomplish. Just makes it more exciting. Football, you want to get a pointy pigskin from one end of the field to the other behind 11 angry guys, and it's a big deal when it happens. In basketball, the main goal of the sport is to put a ball through a hoop, and it happens more than a hundred times a night. When the score is 135 to 145, it's just not all that exciting to me. I'll point this out-

Bobby Tichy: See, I think it's even more exciting.

Cole Fisher: Because it happens all the time? I don't know, I just... This is also the only major sport where a pituitary disorder can make you a seven- digit millionaire athlete.

Bobby Tichy: Sounds like you're pretty bitter towards Yao Ming, is what it sounds like.

Cole Fisher: I actually like Yao Ming, but yeah, the fact that he could be born gargantuan and stick his elbow in the rim flat- footed doesn't really impress me from an athletic prowess standpoint.

Bobby Tichy: I gotcha.

Cole Fisher: But in hockey, that's not going to happen. In hockey, you're flying around on frozen water at twice human speeds with bone shattering checks and hits, and occasional fights break out. There's just always edge- of- your- seat excitement.

Bobby Tichy: I don't disagree with you there. However, I would say that the fights in the NHL rival WWE/WWF more so than any of the fights in the NBA.

Cole Fisher: It's funny that, a lot of those fights... It's been such a part of the hockey culture that a lot of the times those fights are not even out of aggression. There are a few instances, you can find them on YouTube, but where some of the players are miked up. There's one, I remember it was a Pittsburgh Penguins highlight. The two were at the face- off, and it's like a five- to- one game. They're talking, and of course in their Canadian accents, they're like," Game's not much to watch, ey?" He was like," Yeah. You want to give them something to cheer about?"" Yeah, I'll do that. All right." They drop the gloves." Good luck."" Yeah, you too." Then they just go at it, and they just pound each other's faces in. That's just part of the excitement, the culture and stuff for them, because the game was really bad otherwise.

Bobby Tichy: What's the goal of the fighting? You're talking about these goals. We're just fighting for fun? I feel like that is the WWE/ WWF.

Cole Fisher: The goal in that case is probably to get two sluggers off the ice, get the crowd back into the game, enjoy it a little more, and sell more tickets.

Bobby Tichy: Sounds like acting to me.

Cole Fisher: I saw the fight. It was very real.

Bobby Tichy: On a more serious note, why in every sport is zero- zero something different? Football, it's zero- zero. Soccer, it's nil- nil.

Cole Fisher: Basketball's zero- zero because they haven't started the game yet.

Bobby Tichy: Tennis is love- love.

Cole Fisher: That's a valid point. Does anybody else call it... I guess you would call it shutouts in other games if you keep them to zero.

Bobby Tichy: Yeah.

Cole Fisher: Yeah. I don't know. I always just kind of thought...

Bobby Tichy: But in tennis, so if you're up like 30- love, but if you win a set 6- 0, you don't say 6- love.

Cole Fisher: I feel like... I'm probably going to upset some tennis fans saying this, but I feel like tennis scoring was one of those things that somebody came up with in their backyard. You know, when you're playing with your buddies and you're inventing a game as a little kid?

Bobby Tichy: Yeah.

Cole Fisher: Then you're like," Oh, no, when this happens, that means it's my ball again." You're like," Oh, well, that's convenient." Somebody's was like," Oh, no, we don't call it zero, we call it love. Now I'm up by 15 points." You're like," But you only scored once."" Yeah, but that's how it works."

Bobby Tichy: That's exactly how I felt the first time I played one on one, and played make it take it. Where someone scored, and they're like,"Make it take it." I was like," Wait a minute. That's not a thing."

Cole Fisher: "You waited until you scored to call that."

Bobby Tichy: Yeah. Oh, boy.

Cole Fisher: In summation, I don't hate basketball, I just think there are like 31 other sports that are more interesting to watch. I love March Madness. That's it.

Bobby Tichy: If you don't learn anything else from this podcast...

Cole Fisher: It's," Cole's an awful human being."

Bobby Tichy: "Cole sucks at basketball, and therefore hates it."

Cole Fisher: It's true.

Bobby Tichy: All right. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time.

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